Friday, April 19, 2013
Monday, April 1, 2013
MPI April Newsletter
Highlight from March
A great way to get connected at MPI is by joining one of our life groups. Life groups are a place where disciples share life together in many different environments. Whether you are on the street sharing Christ together or bowling the night away, life groups are the place to be!
Also, it's important to remember if you are serious about growing in your walk with Christ then fellowshipping with other brothers and sisters is necessary. Life groups gives you the opportunity to meet other believers who share similar interests.
We have recently announced the launch of new life groups. We offer ministry based, class based, special needs based, and activity based. With so many different options meeting all throughout the month, you are bound to find a life group that meets your needs. Check out our website for more details.
Upcoming Events
Sidewalk Counseling| April 13, 2013| Abortion clinic outreach- giving women truth, options, and resources to help them in their time of need. Meet at MPI at 9am. Call Pastor Jared at 773-552-9554 for more info or check out the MPI Sidewalk Counseling page.
Family Fun Night| April 24, 2013| A night to encounter your family in a fun and safe environment. Free for the entire community starting at 6:30pm Call Pastor Suzy at 708-785-0857 or check out MPI Children's Ministry Page.
Weekly Events
Wednesdays at 6:30pm|King’s Kids|All school aged students are welcomed. Mpact and Royal Ranger’s teaching your children about Christ through fun crafts and activities Call Pastor Suzy at 708-785-0857 for more info
Fridays at 7pm|Elevate Youth Ministries| For students between the ages of 11-18, come out for a night of worship, word, and fellowship. Meets every Friday at 7pm. Call Pastor Adam at 773-425-3093 for more info
Life Groups|Meeting at different times throughout the week|A place where disciples share life together. Check out the website for locations, days, and times.
Verse of the Month
Acts 2:42-46, "They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts."
In Closing
Thank you for your prayers and support. We encourage you to get connected with a life group leader, get mentored and start changing the world around you. Please feel free to write or call with any comments, questions, or prayer requests you might have.
In Christ,
Griselda Govea
Campus Pastor
Metro Praise International Riis Park
Church Address | 5405 W. Diversey, Chicago, IL 60639
Mailing Address | P.O. 34863, Chicago, IL 60639
Phone | 773-932-7238
Web | www.mpichurch.net
Email | grubio1@gmail.com
Friday, March 15, 2013
A Pastor's Heart
Note: This letter is written at a time of peace both in our church and in my life, without any particular situation in mind. I also have purposely waited for certain situations to resolve (2-3 months) just to be sure when I wrote a post like this no one could say, "this is about me, etc."
This has been a post I've been desiring to write for the last year when I was confronting "hyper-grace" folks, but I just felt the peace and release to write it today after having fun with my family at the pool.
_________________
Dear Facebook Friends,
Greetings in the Awesome Name of Jesus Christ who is the Great God and Savior of the World! As an elder who has served God's people for over 15 years you probably know already that I have a passionate love for God's truth. However, I'm not a sectarian or a divisive person in the Body. Meaning, I love all Christians who agree with the fundamentals (Jesus is God, the Bible is legit, etc) and yet disagree with me on such issues as, "spiritual gifts," "women preachers," "the rapture," "Calvinism," etc.
However, what I do have an issue with is when people from other churches come to people in our fold or other churches and promote divisive beliefs behind the church leadership's back.
Meaning, I have known Calvinist to go behind other pastor's back and sow division in the youth group or church and try to teach their members the lies of John Calvin. I even witnessed first hand people attack our church's disciples because we allow women to preach and be elders and yet not confront the leadership openly or publicly (they hid behind emails and back room conversations).
Therefore, everyone who reads my posts and knows me please hear me very clearly,
I have no issues with you or someone else being a Christian and disagreeing with our church in 'non-essentials,' however, if I or any of our leadership ever hears of your false beliefs being "pushed or promoted" on God's people that we care for we will come after you, your church, and its leadership.
Like Paul rebuked Peter openly "face-to-face," we will do the same, Galatians 2:11. We have no fear of man here or concern about "winning friends and influencing people." We believe an open rebuke is better than hidden love and that when Jesus called religious leaders, "blind guides, hypocrites, snakes, and vipers" he did it in love.
Make no mistake, you can have your own beliefs that differ with us on the "minors," but if they cross the line into God's people's lives that we are accountable for you will meet our Elders/Deacons with the full weight of God's Word, Holy Ghost power, and the boldness of a lion.
We have actually had cults (who were even secretly attending 'Christian churches') drop off their materials at our church in hopes that our members would read them. However, within 2 hours they were being sat down in our church and were publicly rebuked.
We always give people fair time, avoid intimidation tactics (yelling, cursing, violence, etc), and are full of grace and truth- but we don't run and hide from workers of division- we meet them head on.
We have placed four Mormon missionaries on our stage, gave them fair time and annihilated their lies for all to see. We have openly challenged the most proselytizing Muslim tv show in Chicago, "The Deen Show," to public debate and they have refused to come. We have gone to three Jehovah Witness Kingdom Halls in our neighborhood and preached Jesus in their lobbies and parking lot for all to hear. I personally walked into the "Adi Da" center on Fullerton and confronted their idolatry and man worship. (I know I am a fool to boast, but I must to show others reading this, we have no fear of man.) Not to mention over 3 years on Belmont and Clark- street preaching in the Gay Community.
Now, once again, if you are a true follower of Christ and believe differently than us we offer you the "right hand of fellowship," and say lovingly, "let Christ be glorified in His church." For we truly desire to love as much of the church as Christ does.
On the other hand, if you bring your disagreements to our people without bringing the Elders/Deacons into the meeting first, we will challenge you, your church, and whomever you have with you to stand publicly and give an account.
Please take serious note of this, Metro Praise International is not like the other churches you may have been around. What you say to our people you will be held accountable for. And not only in our church but I personally have been involved with other churches many times to help them defend their doctrines against harmful outside influences as well.
The gift of apologetics is a gift God has given me and our church. It is the fulfillment of the prophecy my mother had before I was even saved found in Jeremiah 23. Remember, we are on the side of grace and truth and will serve you and your church in any way we can to help insure its doctrinal safety. We will publicly stand with you whenever you need us. We just simply ask you to avoid all division, dissension, and open rebellion. If you differ with us please make your differences known to our leadership, not God's sheep.
I pray that those reading this who are faithfully apart of the Body of Christ with pure motives will rest and be at peace to know their is a discipleship based church in the city where the pastor and its leadership debate, rebuke, and guard truth. To you we humbly say, "We are with you, even despite our differences, we stand with you for the glory of God."
However, for those who are cowardly, weak in the faith, trouble makers, and prey upon the naive and immature of Christ's Body I pray you receive this as a warning. By God's grace we will find you and we will boldly confront your error with God's truth. To you we say, "We are against you, despite your subtle motives, we will stand against you."
I end this letter with Paul's words as he dealt with the same kind of things in his churches as outsiders tried to wrongly influence God's people, Of course, we pray for our enemies and love those who hate us. We believe love overcomes hate and it is good to overlook an offense. However, what I am referring to is doctrinal error that either brings division to Christ's church or can damn a person's soul.
1 Corinthians 4:18-21,
18 Some of you have become arrogant, as if I were not coming to you. 19 But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. 20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. 21 What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in love and with a gentle spirit.
Grace & Peace,
Joe
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Below is a youtube playlist of just some of the debates we have graciously had:
Monday, March 11, 2013
What Ever Happened to Gospel Preaching?
A Fear Stricken Church
Many mature Christians concede to the importance of evangelism. They know that Christ commanded it. They profess to believe the doctrines of heaven and hell. They see need for Jesus' message in this sin-sick generation. And still, there is precious little evangelism coming from the Church today. There are probably several reasons for this, but I think I can name the culprit here: the fear of man.We are now living in a day and age where Christians are being intimidated and emasculated by a wicked culture that suppresses the truth in wickedness. They are fear-stricken at the prospect of being labeled as “intolerant bigots,” and will do anything to avoid the negative false stereotypes ascribed to Gospel preachers. Because of this, we are either afraid to evangelize or have devised milder alternatives to reaching the lost.
This is what it looks like when Christians give way to the fear of man:
Pastors preach hard truths to animate the choir, but belch half-truths to appease the critics.
Church calendars are filled with activities to occupy the saints, but absent are times of outreach to sinners.
Personal evangelism has been substituted with productions and events.
Bestsellers are written, lost sinners are forgotten.
Ministers more often accept advice from worldly bloggers than from the wisdom of the Bible.
Rare are exhortations from the pulpit to reach the lost; rarer are expectations for the pew to respond in obedience.
Today’s so-called preachers have a new vocabulary which is foreign to the Bible; they have changed the definitions of age-old Christian practices; what they call evangelism is completely unlike the ministry of Jesus and His disciples.
It is time to return to the ancient paths...
Monday, March 4, 2013
MPI March Newsletter
MPI MARCH NEWSLETTER
Highlights from February
This past month Life Groups hosted a Super Bowl party where Pastor Corey Hicks,hip-hop rapper, performed during the half time show. After his performance many were impacted and three people gave their lives to Jesus. We look forward to seeing these teens discipled and transformed.
We are happy to announce that a woman got up and left shortly after reading the pamphlet!
As we head out to our monthly outreach
our intent is not to bash nor condemn, but to she'd light into such a dark time in a woman's life. We offer
hope, options, free resources, and most importantly truth. There is an estimated 3,288 abortions done per day and we are asking God that He would use us to save them and their families from this destruction.
MPI is continuously looking for different ways to reach the
broken and lost. If you are interested in being used by God contact us so we
may get you connected.
Upcoming Events
Sidewalk Counseling|March 9, 2013| Abortion clinic outreach- giving women truth, options, and resources to help them in their time of need. Meet at MPI at 9am. Call Pastor Jared at 773-55209554 for more info.
Family Fun Night| March 27, 2013| A night to encounter your family in a fun and safe environment. Free for the entire community starting at 6:30pm
Click here to visit our "Family Fun Night" Facebook Page!
Weekly Events
Wednesdays at 6:30pm|King’s Kids|All school aged students are welcomed. Mpact and Royal Ranger’s teaching your children about Christ through fun crafts and activities Call Pastor Suzy at 708-785-0857 for more info
Fridays at 7pm|Elevate Youth Ministries| For students between the ages of 11-18, come out for a night of worship, word, and fellowship. Meets every Friday at 7pm. Call Pastor Adam at 773-425-3093 for more info
Life Groups|Meeting at different times throughout the week in leader’s homes|A place where disciples share life together. Check out the website for locations, days, and times.
Verse of the Month
Proverbs 31:8-9, "Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, for the rights of all who are destitute Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy."
In Closing
Thank you for your prayers and support. We encourage you to get connected with a life group leader and start changing the world around you. Please feel free to write or call with any comments, questions, or prayer requests you may have.
In Christ,
Griselda Govea
Campus Pastor
Metro Praise International Riis Park
Church Address | 5405 W. Diversey, Chicago, IL 60639
Mailing Address | P.O. 34863, Chicago, IL 60639
Phone | 773-932-7238
Web | www.mpichurch.org
Email | grubio1@gmail.com
Monday, February 25, 2013
The Two Shall Be One!
We officially announced yesterday (Feb. 24th, 2013), that we will be merging the Wicker Park Campus back to Riis Park starting April 1st as our lease ends in Wicker Park March 31st. We made the decision with the guidance of our Apostolic leaders and the council of all the Elders and Deacons.
Please continue to pray for us as we trust the Lord to fullfil His goal with us and that He may grant us 100,000 disciples in Chicago with 50 churches and 500 around the world.
Psalm 37:23-25, "23 If the Lord delights in a man's way, he makes his steps firm; 24 though he stumble, he will not fall, for the Lord upholds him with his hand. 25 I was young and now I am old, yet I have never seen the righteous forsaken or their children begging bread."
All the leadership in both campuses are fully capable of answering any questions that might arise and are really excited about the future. We look forward to seeing you in the harvest!
<><
Joe
#ChicagoforJesus
p.s. Here is a great flash back video one of the Wicker Park disciples made,
Metro Praise Wicker Park Flashback from Rudy Salt on Vimeo.
Sunday, February 17, 2013
Healthy, Wealthy, & Wise
Opening Text
2 Peter 1:3-9,
3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
Things to Add to Your Faith
1. Goodness
2. Knowledge
3. Self-Control
4. Perseverance
5. Godliness
6. Brotherly Kindness
7. Love
Illustration on How to Receive Your Promises from God
1 | God's Divine Power is like an Electrical Plant
His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness
2 | God's Promises Are Like The Electrical Wires and Plugs That Bring Electricity to a Building
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises
3 | Our Faith is Like the Plug that Goes into the Outlet to Receive the Power
For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith...
4 | By Adding the Seven Things Mentioned by Peter to Our Faith We Are Increasing the Flow of Power
For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
How to be Healthy, Wealthy, & Wise
Sunday Sermon
Friday, February 15, 2013
Three Heresies Exposed
On Ash Wednesday I was inspired to write the following on my facebook page,
"There are three heresies in Christianity that have caused the most pain and loss of true discipleship, (1) Roman Catholicism, (2) Calvinism, and (3) Cessationism.
However, by far the most deceiving and damning to men's souls has been Roman Catholicism. I pray for all people to flee this false religion with it's idol worship, demonic superstition, and man-centered teachings.
I believe the following Words of Jesus are directly to the church of Rome, all her priests, and wayward followers;
Revelation 3:14-16,
15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm–neither hot nor cold–I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing. But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
May God have mercy on those who believe salvation is found in this unclean defiled church."
#IntheLoveofChrist
Well, I received a backlash not in regards to Roman Catholicism, but specifically concerning Calvinism. Thus, I wanted to take some time here to work out each of the main points and humbly submit them for the Body of Christ to discern with the Holy Spirit according to God's Word revealed in the Bible.
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1. Heresies | I am using the word heresy in the most basic sense like how Paul used it in Galatians 5:19-21, "19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery... ; 20... selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21... I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Therefore, heresies are unbiblical beliefs and teachings that divide the Body of Christ.
The Greek word for "factions" is, "αιρεσισ/hairesis," and according to Holman's Dictionary means, "In Gal. 5:20 it is one of the works of the flesh and is in a grouping including strife, seditions, and envyings. It apparently has to do with people who choose to place their own desires above the fellowship of the church. Titus 3:10 speaks of a man who is a heretic. Since the context of the verse has to do with quarreling and dissension, the idea in this passage seems to be that of a fractious person."
Therefore, a heretical or fractious person according to the New Testament, doesn't mean that they cannot be a Christian or hold to the basic tenants of the Christian faith. As a result, people can be Christians and be Roman Catholics, Calvinists, and Cessationists. However, Roman Catholicism has the most false teaching and thus, if one were to follow all its teachings as the Priests and Popes teach, they couldn't be saved. On the other hand, since Calvinism and Cessationism's teachings do not affect the Gospel or the core doctrines of the Christian faith like Roman Catholicism one can have a false view in their particular beliefs and still be saved.
At the same time, since Paul said "those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God," it is important that people who believe in Calvinism or Cessationism (or any non-Biblical teaching) not divide the Body of Christ with their false teachings and thus be in danger of hell itself. For heresies and factions according to Paul in Titus 3:10-11 are the most damning when they break the unity of the Christian Church, which is Christ's Body.
Some might then ask, "How much heresy or false teachings can a believer have and still be saved?" However, this kind of question would fall under the same category of question as, "How much selfish ambition can a Christian have and still be saved?" In turn, this blog is not meant to address the subject of the falling away of a believer but rather that Christians can and have had false beliefs that hurt the Church. For more Biblical info on losing one's salvation you can read a prior blog I wrote in which I describe throught the five warnings of Hebrews how one can lose their salvation through unbelief by the process of sin hardening their heart. Click here to read.
2. Christianity | I am using this term in its most broadest sense according to the dictionary, thus, I am not considering all people in Christianity to be true disciples. However, I am not making the term so broad as to include Jehovah Witness, Mormons, etc... because I believe they have never had true compatibility with core Bible doctrines and church history. Thus, for my purposes a Christian is someone who subscribes the teachings of Christ and the core doctrines of the Christian Church, i.e., "the Trinity, Jesus' deity, etc."
Once again, Roman Catholicism possesses a unique challenged here not only in its placement in Christianity but with its very founding as "church." Meaning, when one rejects the false claim that Peter was the first Pope from the Biblical evidence and can clearly see the ever evolving false beliefs of Catholicism over the last 1,500 years it is hard to place a historical or doctrinal "marker" on when and where they became apostate.
Some might say Rome apostatized when they introduced praying to the saints, the exaltation of Mary, or even as late as the Council of Trent in 1545 when they condemned the Protestant Reformation. However, I believe Roman Catholicism is a heresy in the Christian Church because they came from true Christianity, still claim to be Christian, and in the present time have much in common with biblical Christianity (belief in the Trinity, Jesus' deity, etc). Thus, as in the time of the Great Protestant Reformation, people can have genuine salvation and be Roman Catholic, however, it is based upon their rejection of her false teachings and true faith in Christ.
For a timeline of Rome's false beliefs please click here.
3. True Discipleship | Here is where the "theological rubber meets the road." By true discipleship I mean what Jesus intended when He gave the Great Commission in Matthew 28:18-20, specifically verses 19 & 20, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you..." In turn, a "true disciple of Jesus," is someone who obeys "everything Jesus commanded."
In other words, if Jesus commanded His disciples to "cast out devils and heal the sick," to willing doubt and disobey this command would be the same as disobeying the clear command to "forsake all and follow Him." Therefore, one cannot be a true disciple of Christ without affirming and obeying all He commanded.
Someone might say in response, "If the criteria of being a true disciple is to obey all Jesus commanded, than no one is truly His disciple because everyone sins- even disciples like Peter." First, this statement would make Jesus Himself a liar, because in the command He was expecting people to "obey all His commands" and thus, if this command couldn't be fully obeyed then what He said was untrue. And second, a sign of a true disciple, like Peter, is that when they don't obey all Jesus commanded, they repent and have a change of mind and heart.
Thus, one can fulfill the command of Jesus to "obey all His teachings," by first knowing and believing them them, second, by being obedient to them, and lastly, repenting when one does not keep them. As a result, no biblically based disciple can continue in disobedience to Christ's clear commands and still be considered His faithful follower in the truest sense, Matthew 7:24-27, John 8:31-34, & James 1:22-25.
4. Pain and Loss of True Discipleship | What I mean here is that when someone doesn't follow all the teachings of Christ than they will suffer harm (pain) both spiritually and even sometimes physically. And thus, not following all Jesus commanded is not "true discipleship," but rather "false luke warm discipleship." Or at best a sub par kind of discipleship.
From the blessings and curses of Deuteronomy 29, to the death of Achan in the time of Joshua, to the curse of death upon Anaanias and Sapphira in the New Testament, and the beating the Seven Sons Sceva received because they couldn't cast out the demons from the violent man. It is clear from beginning to end in the Bible that man is most satisfied and blessed when he or she obeys all that God commanded, Psalm 1 & 119.
I will leave this point for now and add more explanation later if it is needed, however, I would assume that all "God-fearers" would support my Biblical claim, "God's ways are the best ways. And disobedience to Him brings harm." Plus, according to James for one to know the good they ought to do and not do it, it is sin, James 4:17. Therefore, what I wrote here could be said of any and all teachings of Christ in the believers life that they willing disobey. For example; prayer, support for the poor, evangelizing, etc.
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Note: Please click the subject titles for wikipedia's general info on each subject if you desire to understand the basic teachings of each heresy. However, this blog is not meant to go in-depth but simply provide the arguments and definitions for the already learned follower of such systems. And if you are a follower of Christ and haven't heard of or know what these heretical groups teach than consider yourself blessed!
Roman Catholicism
1. Roman Catholicism teaches false unbiblical beliefs as the following; prayers to the saints, the transubstantiation of the communion, purgatory, the office of the Pope, the ascension and immaculate conception of Mary, and confession to priests as a means of forgiveness of sin.
2. As a result, true discipleship defined by Jesus is not found in Roman Catholicism because they do not obey all that Jesus commanded, John 14:6.
3. Therefore, since true discipleship is not found in Roman Catholicism pain and harm is done to the Body of Christ as a whole and to individuals.
Resources for Further Study
1. History of the false unbiblical teachings of Roman Catholicism, here.
2. Great video exposing the harm of Roman Catholicism's beliefs, here.
Calvinism
1. Calvinism teaches such false unbiblical beliefs as; the determinative will of God upon men's souls both in salvation and damnation, God is the source of evil, man does not possess a free will, Jesus does not love the whole world, the sacrifice of the cross was only for the elect, and no one can be sure of their salvation unless they perserve to the end (after death).
2. As a result, true discipleship defined by Jesus is not found in the belief system of Calvinism because they do not fully obey all that Jesus commanded, John 3:16.
3. Therefore, since true discipleship is not found in Calvinism pain and harm is done to the Body of Christ as a whole and to individuals.
Resources for Further Study
1. A great video on the history of Calvinism and determinism in the church, here.
2. A debate between a Calvinist and a non-Calvinist, here.
3. Quotes from the early church fathers on salvation/damnation and good/evil being at the disposal of man's free will, here.
4. Great scholarly article defending free will, here.
5. Informative book teaching the opposite of Calvinism, here.
Cessationism
1. Cessationism teaches many false unbiblical beliefs such as; the age of miracles has ceased, if people are sick it is God's desire for them to be sick, all nine spiritual gifts are not for today, and those who claim today in this present age to see miracles or operate in God's power like the first disciples did are to be considered false prophets and liars.
2. As a result, true discipleship defined by Jesus is not found in the belief system of Cessationism because they do not fully obey all that Jesus commanded, John 14:12.
3. Therefore, since true discipleship is not found in Cessationism pain and harm is done to the Body of Christ as a whole and to individuals.
Resources for Further Study
1. A great article on the gifts of the Spirit, here.
2. A historical look at the gifts of the Spirit in the church, here.
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ROMAN CATHOLICISM
Have not received any yet from the above mentioned arguments.
CALVINISM
Have not received any yet from the above mentioned arguments.
CESSATIONISM
1 // THE PENTECOSTAL MOVEMENT ITSELF TEACHES CESSATIONISM | If the gifts of the Spirit were never taken away, why did the church need the Azusa Street Revival as mentioned in your article here, "Since the rebirth of speaking in tongues in the early 20th century, the “denominational Pentecostals” have grown to be the largest Protestant organization around the globe?"
This is a misunderstanding of the "gifts of Pentecost" that started in Acts 2 and "Pentecostal Denominations" that organized in the early 1900's. In other words, the gifts were always in the church as this book details for all of church history (remember even Roman Catholicism believes the gifts are for today, thus before the Great Protestant Reformation in the 1500's the saved Catholic monks, missionaries, and priests often times operated in the gifts). However, the new Protestant denominations or church groups after the 1500's did not always define them or practice them.
Also, here is a link to the church father's quotes concerning the presence of spiritual gifts after the Bible was written, after 90 AD.
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2 // PAUL MENTIONS IN 1 CORINTHIANS 13 THAT WHEN THE PERFECT COMES THE GIFTS WILL CEASE | If the gifts were meant to be for all people they why wouldn't the New Testament authors mention after 1 Corinthians was written in the rest of the Epistles. Thus, the "perfect" mentioned in 1 Corinthians 13 refers to the canon of the New Testament and once it was written the gifts were no longer needed. How can you explain this?
I will share the commentary from the "Expositor's Commentary," to disprove the claim in 1 Corinthians 13 concerning the nature of the "perfect," which most believe to the be Christ and His second coming. However, it is clear from Acts 2:38b-39 that gifts of the Holy Spirit will be for all people, "And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off –for all whom the Lord our God will call."
Expositor's Commentary on 1 Corinthians 13:8-12,
Note 8- 12 Love is permanent, in contrast with prophecies, tongues, and knowledge-- all of which will cease to exist because they will cease to be needed. In v. 8, Paul uses the verb (katargeo, "abolish"; hence "cease," "pass away") to describe the cessation of prophecies and of knowledge; of tongues, he says "they will be stilled" (NIV). Here the verb is pauo, which also means "cease." The reason these three will cease is that they are imperfect and partial.
(vv. 9, 10) compared to perfect knowledge and prophetic understanding in heaven. He does not say when they will cease. Some think he meant that the need for miraculous gifts would cease to exist at the end of the apostolic period. This view is based in part on the implications of the meaning of the term teleion ("perfection")
v. 10, which is taken to refer here to the completion of the canon at the end of the first century A. D. With this view, the term "prophecies" in v. 8 is taken narrowly as referring to direct, inspired revelatory communication from the Holy Spirit or possibly to some special aid given by the Spirit to understand and present truth already revealed, as given in the written Scriptures (cf. Hodge, in loc.). All this, then, was done away when the canon was completed about A. D. 100. This cessation would apply also to tongues and to the special gift of knowledge (vv. 8, 9)-- the "gift correctly to understand and properly exhibit the truths revealed by the apostles and prophets" (Hodge, in loc.).
There is something to commend this view as an argument against the position that the gifts mentioned in vv. 8- 10 continued, beyond the apostolic period, especially prophetic revelation. For if such revelation is held to continue, then might not the Koran, The Book of Mormon, and Science and Health be considered inspired revelations from God?
Nevertheless, it is difficult to prove the cessation of these gifts at the end of the first century A. D. by taking teleion to refer to a completion of the canon at that time, since that idea is completely extraneous to the context. While teleion can and does refer to something completed at some time in the future, the time of that future completion is not suggested in v. 10 as being close.
On the other hand, in a number of contexts the related words telos ("end," "termination;" "last part") and teleo ("bring to an end") are used in relation to the second coming of Christ. This is true in both non- Pauline writing (cf. James 5: 11; Rev 20: 5, 7; 21: 6; 22: 13) and 1 Corinthians 1: 8; 15: 24. Since in the contexts of the Second Coming these related words are used and since Paul himself used telos in talking about the Second Coming elsewhere in 1 Corinthians, it seems more normal to understand teleion in v. 10 to mean that "perfection" is to come about at the Second Coming, or, if before, when the Christian dies and is taken to be with the Lord (2Cor 5: 1- 10).
There are other problems regarding the completion- of- the- canon view of teleion here. The conditional temporal hotan with the subjunctive form of the verb, "[whenever the end] should come" (v. 10), suggests that Paul felt an indefiniteness about when the end he has in mind would come. But he shows no such indefiniteness in regard to the written Scriptures or the special position of the apostles (9: 1, 2), whose work would be assumed to be coming to an end shortly upon their death. Similarly, the hotan with the subjunctive clauses and telos used of the Second Coming in 15: 24, are also indefinite and open- ended: "then... when [or, whenever] he hands over the kingdom...." Here again, Paul does not know exactly when this will occur. In contrast, the hote with the indicative clauses in 13: 11 are quite definite as to the time of their occurrences: "When I was a child... when I became a man.".
One more problem with taking teleion to refer to the completion of the canon is found in the tote, ("then," "at that time") clauses in v. 12. Did Paul really expect to live to the time of the completion of the canon and then expect to "know" or "know completely," when other apostles (e. g., John) might (and actually did) live longer than he and it would be they who at that time would "know completely"?
All things considered, it is better to argue for the cessation of the gifts of prophecy, tongues, and the special gift of knowledge on the basis of the larger context of Paul's writings and on the basis of the grammar of vv. 9,: prophecies, tongues, and knowledge will pass away soon. Paul's viewpoint seems to be that it would be when the important office of apostle with its requirement of men having seen the Lord and having been a witness to his resurrection (Gal 1: 14- 24) is no longer exercised. But "now" (nyni) faith, hope, and love continue to remain (menei, present continuous sense).
Paul's illustration of a child's thoughts and speech, real but inadequately conceived and expressed in comparison with those of mature person (v. 11) aptly conveys the difference between the Christian's present understanding and expression of spiritual things and the perfect understanding and expression he will have in heaven (v. 12). The metaphor is that of the imperfect reflection seen in one of the polished metal mirrors (cf. James 1: 23) of the ancient world in contrast with seeing the Lord face to face (cf. Gen 32: 30; Num 12: 8; 2Cor 3: 18). Paul's thought in 12b may be expanded as follows: Now through the Word of God, I know in part; then, in the presence of the Lord I will know fully, to the full extent that a redeemed finite human being can know and in a way similar in kind to the way the Lord in his infinite wisdom fully and infinitely knows me. The Corinthians, Paul implies, must not boast now of their gifts (cf. 13: 4), for those gifts are nothing compared to what is in store for the Christians in heaven.
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Note: I will answer and post the best objections here when I receive them either at this blog in the comments section or on my facebook page. Since posting the original post on facebook all of the "objections" were not based on my definitions or arguments, thus they were straw men and not worth citing as actual arguments. For example: Someone said concerning Calvinism that they couldn't be considered heretical because they accepted Evangelical Christianity. However, that is not what I claimed or what Paul taught concerning the broad definition of "faction/heresy." Believers could be factious and heretical at the same time.
Another objection that was given outside of my points was: Some one pointed to the number of "disciples" made by Calvinist-based ministry. However, I never claimed Calvinist couldn't see people saved or even be a disciple. I did state that they couldn't be a "true and faithful disciple" in all of Jesus' teachings because Jesus never taught what Calvinism teaches. Thus, they would need to defeat the argument from the Scriptural claims of Jesus and the New Testament to be considered a "true disciple," "one without doctrinal error." Therefore, the objections must deal with one of the following areas, (a) my definitions in the points, (2) the logical order or soundness of my arguments, or (c) the teachings of Christ verified by the New Testament opposing my positional claims.
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